I've just been exchanging posts with a teacher on a web forum I participate in. This guy is very liberal but also very reasonable.
After a few posts, I realized that we were completely talking at cross-purposes. And I realized I had no idea where he was coming from. As a reformed liberal, I thought I could get inside liberals' minds to figure out where they were coming from, useful for honing one's arguments. But suddenly, I can't do that any more. Moreover, apparently they can't see inside my mind, either. This really scares me. One cannot effectively fight what one does not understand.
This reminds me of women and men who are so closely identified with their own sexes that the other is a complete mystery, and they just sort of bumble through life hoping for the best when they have to interact with the opposite sex.
When I "reformed" as a liberal, it wasn't me that changed. I used to be a Democrat, but I felt the Democrat Party left me behind as it veered ever leftward. I don't feel I've changed in any way. Now the Democrat Party seems to me to have veered SO far left that it has come all the way around to being exceedingly reactionary--let the government run everything because "the masses" are too stupid and greedy to be trusted with anything.
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As someone who resonated with what you wrote here - who considers herself as stated previously, a "soon to potentially be former liberal" myself - seems the balance has been lost; I hope for the sake of our country we can find it again. That said, I suppose too a case could be made we never have actually ever had it.
ReplyDeleteExtremes either left or right are toxic in my opinion. As the liberal I thought I was, I looked for my party to be compassionately conservative; I feel there are certain circumstances where gov't should step in and thru my taxes wisely spent, ensure for instance, good schools, fair and equitable medical care. I am not for over-regulation; I am for enough of it that the greedy and unjust in the corporate world are not allowed to take advantage. I had an insider view of the financial world for too long to not shake my head over what has happened on that front. I also have a strong belief in the importance of self-reliance and responsiblity; I'm not a fan of welfare. Although for those truly in need, I am one to think my gov't should offer equitable - and limited - assistance.
I think we all need to be informed and keep a dialogue open, most especially when we don't agree. I would value a sit down, face to face with someone who obviously cares as much as you do about this country. We perhaps might not share the same views on everything? But I think we would come to the discussion with that as a foundation, and without the need to demonize or dis-respect each other. That to me ... is part of what I am so disillusioned with; the extremes that both parties have developed. Saddens me.
I continued the discussion with my teacher friend and it finally came to me at least part of the reason for the divide. The revelation came around the issue of paying science and math teachers more in order to try to fill the extreme shortage of science and math teachers in the lower schools. University science and math professors are extremely discouraged by both the low enrollments of students in science and math--that is, how few students are excited about these topics--and the lack of preparation for advanced studies. Part (not all, but an important part) of the problem is teachers who are teaching science and math even though they know little about the subjects. How can you get kids excited about subjects that you, yourself, are uncomfortable with? You can't.
ReplyDeleteWhat it came down to was this: He feels that all teachers should be paid the same on the principle of equal pay for equal work. I see a shortage and say, let's do something about it.
I don't know how to transcend this divide. Raising all teachers' salaries to the level required to attract and retain science and math teachers won't work for a whole bunch of reasons, not least that if teacher salaries are going up, it is likely that the salaries for scientists and mathematicians in industry are going up, too. That's the way growing economies have always worked. In addition, in universities (even unionized public universities), professors in some fields earn more because that's the way the market works. I haven't noticed that my colleagues in English, for example, work less hard than I do, although my friend would have predicted they would. Why not? Pride, I guess, and maybe the recognition that they chose their careers.
But another interesting thing came out of this discussion. He complained that a big problem in K-12 is the bureaucracy, and that this (and he is correct) takes away resources that could be used to pay teachers. I had just finished trying to deal with the Veterans Administration on behalf of my husband, and my efforts led me to a representative who helps veterans. He was new at the job and complained bitterly about how the bureaucracy essentially prevents him from doing the job he is supposed to do. Then I read an article about bureaucratic problems in Medicaid.
These bureaucracies cost an incredible amount of money. Yet liberals, including my teacher friend, think even more government is the answer!
A number of things stood out in your comments about the continued discussion with your friend. Most strongly was my reaction that I don't agree with him. Education is a sore spot for me however ... with two sons I immersed myself during their elementary/jr. high years in PTA, Site Council, extensive classroom volunteering. I tried and I'm confident in having earned the right to speak on the subject.
ReplyDeleteBy the time they hit High School I was so disillusioned with the system I didn't care anymore; enough to see my boys through the last hurdles? But I lost any respect for what public education has become in this country.
So *this* liberal, does not think "even more government" is the answer. This liberal thinks smarter government is the answer; a reigning in of corporate greed and corruption is the answer; a removal of lobbyists and money from our political system is the answer; a realignment of priorities to ensure quality education with inspiring and qualified teachers is the answer. And I want to put the emphasis on the inspiring and qualified; I am NOT for rewarding with a job those who cannot perform it well ... especially when we're talking about educating and building a future for our youth ... and our country. I met and dealt with too many tenured, over-paid, uninspiring and toxic educators in my day. Get them out of the system. You want to be paid well as an educator? Than earn it. Conversely? This country and the school systems need to value and support quality. We don't.
Good gov't - in my opinion - helps. But that's good, effective gov't. Not bureaucracy run amok. I also think gov't rightly has a role to play in effective regulation; again I speak to wanting to see a balance and a removal of extremes. The airline industry and the financial industry should not have been deregulated imho. Conversely? I think gov't gets itself involved in my personal life far more than it should.
Quote attributed to C.S. Lewis, the great Christian thinker:
ReplyDelete"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
I've been thinking about this more (at least I haven't been dreaming it!). Liberals are caught up in the drama of individual humans. They are like the mother who can't let her kid make mistakes, feel bad, fall and skin his knee. They think they can fix everything bad and, of course, the only way for them to do so is to use the tool of big government.
ReplyDeleteConservatives, on the other hand, recognize that bad things are going to happen no matter what and that it is up to individuals to take care of themselves, and local communities to help the individuals out when they genuinely need help. This is an important distinction, because only local communities can determine the real nature of someone's distress. The federal government is too big to determine the difference between someone who is a slacker from someone who genuinely fell afoul of fate, to tell the difference between a druggie and someone who is genuinely ill. Local communities, because they know the individuals, can tell the difference.
While the liberals' compassion is commendable, even admirable, it is completely unrealistic. The really strange thing is that local communities are also be much, much more compassionate. I cite as one example the wonderful treatment I received from a local VA representative versus cold and uninterested treatment I received from someone at a big VA hospital. Almost everyone, liberals included, acknowledge the coldness of federal bureaucracy, yet in their misguided need to "fix everything", they overlook the lack of compassion that is endemic to the bureaucracy. Sad.
I agree at its core with all you wrote above; but again I find myself wanting to discuss the lack of balance - and challenge some assumptions made about how at least "this" liberal thinks - both in the realities of what is/has happened in government - as well as in what you wrote above.
ReplyDeleteI applaud and appreciate you wanting to try and understand what "makes us tick."
How can a local community rightly (and let me emphasize that I agree with you they are indeed in the best position to help their own, NOT the gov't)assist the members of their community, when their services are gutted due to ineptitude and corruption on the State and Federal level?
I suppose it's fair to say that as a liberal for the sake of our discussion here, I get frustrated at conservatives assuming I'm a namby-pamby tree-hugging budding socialist who wants to give everybody a free ride. I'm not - and I don't. I agree that's an extreme perception; and gratefully I don't see it in your reasoned opinions here. But ... hard to argue it's not a perception that prevails in the media. Conversely? Some ugly stereotypes are out there about conservatives too.
There is such polarization in this country politically now, and it's getting worse. Personally? I find the face of conservatisim in the media in this country derisive. I'm not so naive as to say the left isn't guilty of that at times too. But imo - not to the extent that the frontmen and women for the conservative right on radio, television are. Spewing hate, anger and fear is as counter-productive in my view, as free hand-outs that enable those who will not work or take responsibility for helping themselves. Fear is an emotion that has been used throughout history by leaders to manipulate and control the masses. Wrongly in the opinion of this person.
Again ... as a liberal, yes - I want to see my gov't take tax dollars and use them wisely and well to help enrich and enable the citizens of the United States to take their own personal sense of responsibility and value of hard work, and live with a fair chance of achieving a standard of living that their personal sense of both can lead them to.
One more point I'd like to make also for the liberal side - I love and respect this country as much as any conservative. That is another assumption/label put on liberals that I find personally offensive, "you don't love this country or support our troops." Excuse me?!
It seems to me we have fallen so far down the rabbit hole now with some of our basic support systems i.e. education, health care ~ that I despair over our chances to ever pull ourselves back out. As I've made mention here before, what's happened in our financial markets disgusts me. And yes, I blame the lack of reasoned and right regulation. Greed and corruption have brought us to this tragic point. I do personally think, it could have been - should have been - avoided.
And yes ... ultimately it is ... Sad.
I do however, I appreciate the ability to discuss it here.
I don't think the hate and fear is one-sided. Just listen to John Stewart or read the Daily Kos. Both sides spew extremism. The only difference is that conservative mouthpieces seem to be more successful at garnering an audience (I don't know why).
ReplyDeleteI realize that, to liberals, their mouthpieces just sound funny and mainstream, but they are not. Listen to them objectively, as I have to the conservative mouthpieces. I happen to agree with a lot of the points that conservative mouthpieces make, but I don't particularly like the tone with which the points are made. To me, the liberal mouthpieces sound hateful. Neither side is helping the cause of closing the gap.
I know that local communities have suffered from corruption at the state and federal levels (although in most states, the main problem with the state government is the federal government). But to me, the answer is NOT more federal government. To me, that will just make the problem worse. So how do we recapture local control?
The founders had excellent reasons for narrowly defining the role of the federal government and giving most power to the states. How far we have departed from the Constitution in that regard!
Ah touche` :-) Although I'd argue that Jon Stewart spews hate and fear; he and Colbert imho ... are masters of intelligent snark and exposing hypocrisy - on both sides. I've heard Stewart go after Obama, democrats, rightly so. Do they get extreme? Of course. But so do Limbaugh and O'Reilly. And unlike those two, Stewart and Colbert are comedians; NOT, serious commentators as Limbaugh and O'Reilly want to be perceived.
ReplyDeleteI agree re Federal Gov't that more of it is not the answer. How do we recapture local control? I think a good first step is educating and motivating the public on the community level; we're in this mess ... care enough to learn the how and why. Then? Care enough to want to do something to fix it. How to do that? I don't know; but I think stopping the blame, pulling ourselves up by the bootstraps and "doing something" is a step in the right direction. Part of the problem I think is that people have disassociated themselves from the process; allowed the talking heads to do the thinking for them - whichever ones they choose to listen to. How about reading up on the issues yourself; forming your own opinions; getting out into your community and getting involved? I know you do; one of the reasons I'm enjoying this discussion. But unfortunately, the majority? Don't.
And again I agree with you ... we've strayed too far from the Constitution's basic principals. Fear and blind allegiance to talking points however, are not going to be the path to our returning to its wise principals.